‘Modern Love’ Podcast: Open Your Heart and Loosen Up! Therapist Terry Real’s Advice for Fathers

Just tell her I love her.

Love.

Here’s to love.

Love

From “The New York Times,” I’m Anna Martin. This is “Modern Love.”

For the past few weeks, we’ve been listening to all the stories you sent us about your dads. We wanted to know about the times your father opened up and showed you his emotions.

So many of you told us your dad didn’t open up very often. These moments you shared, they were fleeting. They were on the heels of some big life event. And some of you didn’t see your dad become emotional until the end of his life. But when it did happen, oh, boy.

Look, not everyone had a quiet, unemotional dad. We had plenty of stories about fathers who said I love you all the time, who said how proud they were, who opened up about what they were going through. But what was common between every story we heard is that those peeks into your dad’s world, they really meant something.

The word gift came up so often, it was clear your dad letting you in, it really changed how you understood not only him, but yourself too. It was a gift. And all these stories, they felt like gifts to us. Thank you, everyone, for sharing with us on this Father’s Day week. There are so many more that you sent in. I wish we could play them all. Your stories have had our whole team thinking about what fatherhood means today, how it’s changing, if it’s changing.

Because when we asked you about these moments with your dad, we thought there were probably a lot of you who were looking for a deeper relationship with him, who wanted to understand him better. We also thought there were probably fathers out there who were trying to do things differently.

A few weeks ago, we had family therapist Terry Real on the show. He told us all about his own difficult relationship with his dad and how our understanding of masculinity affects our relationships. So as we were listening to your stories and hearing what your dads did well, what you wished they’d done, and the kinds of fathers you wanted to be, we knew we had to have Terry back.

I deal every day with the consequences of now-grown people having been raised by Waldorf, shutdown, distant fathers. Open your hearts.

So today, for this Father’s Day episode, Terry Real joins me again to talk about vulnerability and fatherhood. Plus, he answers your questions about being a dad. Stay with us.

Terry Real, welcome back to “Modern Love.”

Oh, what a joy. It’s wonderful to be here with you.

I want to also say Happy Father’s Day, by the way. We’re a little early, but happy dads day to you.

Thank you.

Does Father’s Day mean anything specific to you, to your family?

It does, actually. We have a big celebration. And unfortunately, my birthday comes right on the same weekend as Father’s Day. So I get to collapse. But it’s like you’re born around Christmas. But we do. And we make a big deal in my family Father’s — and Mother’s Day both.

What’s the real family tradition? Do you have a food you normally eat on Father’s Day or a thing you do?

I wish I could show a picture of my grill palace here. Outside of my home, I have two grills. I have a grill table. It’s a good two-minute walk away from the house. So I go with my sons, and we talk and imbibe and stay away from those annoying demands that are waiting for you.

You just need to focus on the grilling.

And each other.

And each other — there you go. In our last conversation, you told us about your often difficult, very complex relationship with your own father. So I wonder, in addition to the grilling of it all, if Father’s Day is also a complicated time for you.

My dad died, oh, heading on 20 years ago. I’ve done my grieving and my resolution. I feel like I take the best of my parents in spirit. My dad — I taught my dad how to be more open-hearted with me. It’s like opening up an oyster. I had to prise through his shell to get to him. And I did.

And on his deathbed, he assembled me and my brother and said, I could have done a much better job with two. I made a lot of mistakes. Don’t do what I did. When you get to where I am now, love is the only thing that matters. Everything else is bullshit.

Wow.

And so I say over and over again, the best gift — all you father’s listening — the best gift you can give your children is your own health and recovery. Do your work. If you come from trauma, as so many of us do, if you had a not-great relationship with your own father or mother, get your butt into therapy, and work it out. Be it.

Last time we had on the show, we talked a lot about men in general. I basically came to you asking, what is going on with men? And you laid out this really thoughtful critique of traditional masculinity. And you told us that there were no good models of connective and vulnerable masculinity currently out there.

So I wonder how you think not only men, but fathers specifically, should be thinking about this. Like, if there’s nothing to model off of, where do they start?

Well, here and there, here and there. Bruce Springsteen —

[LAUGHS]: Your client, yes.

Well, yeah. He outed himself. But he’s a big-hearted, strong man. In his autobiography — after he was a big hit in the US, he had a tour in the UK. And there were all these billboards — Bruce Springsteen, the future of rock and roll. They didn’t know him from Adam.

And in the autobiography, he says he walked into the producer’s office and ripped down a billboard from the wall. He was so uncharacteristically angry. And I love this line. He said to the guy, it’s show business, not tell business. You don’t tell them I’m the greatest thing. Let’s show it to them.

And that’s what I want to say to men. You don’t tell your kid how to be a good kid. You show them by your own health and wholeness and recovery. Do your work.

What does fatherhood mean to you?

I say this to men all day long. This is my mentor, Pia Mellody. Good parenting consists of nurture, guidance, and limits.

Mm. Say that again.

Nurture, guidance, limits. And we fathers traditionally lean on guidance and limits and leave out — I say to guys, look, the advice you’re giving your child is great. But you know what? You haven’t earned the right to be listened to.

Whoa.

Get on your hands and knees and play horsey for a while. Have a relationship with them. Then you can give them your advice.

Wow, you haven’t earned the right to give them that advice. That’s powerful.

It’s true. It’s true. Why should I listen to you? Because I love you, that’s why. OK. Well, then you’ve earned their love. But first and foremost, be with them. Make breakfast with your kid. Drive them somewhere. Go for a walk — not face to face, side by side. So be with them.

Grilling — to our earlier conversation —

Grilling — grilling is thrilling.

And it’s not only, of course, being physically present. It’s the being emotionally open, the listening, the being tuned in.

Tuned in — and we can teach our kids that. And, you’ve heard me say — I’ll say it 10,000 times. Moving people into health and intimacy means moving them beyond patriarchy, which is a system that hurts everybody — moving them beyond traditional gender roles. Fathers — this is psychotherapy. I can give you psychoanalytic articles. Fathers are there to rescue their sons from the enmeshing grip of their incestuous mothers — make me puke.

[LAUGHS]: I hope Freud doesn’t listen to this show. Yeah.

Listen. I can give you articles that are 10 years old that say that. This is alive and well. No. Boys do not need to separate from their parents. Boys do not need to get monosyllabic and share nothing. I want fathers to open their — the best way you can teach your kids to be open-hearted is to be open-hearted yourself.

Talk about a fight you had with somebody at work. Talk about looking in the mirror and seeing you’ve got some gray hair and, oh my god, that’s kind of a — be a human being with your kids. We humans connect through our vulnerabilities. Traditional masculinity tells you to deny your vulnerability. We try and father our children while being invulnerable to them. We don’t want to burden them. No, it’s just the opposite. Be strategic. Be bite-sized. But let them in.

You know I like to tell stories. Can I tell you a story?

Of course. You don’t have to ask me. [LAUGHS]

I like to ask. It’s a true story. So my oldest son, Justin, I’m driving him to hockey practice. And he was young — 10, whatever. And he’s giving me the monosyllabic — we’ve all been there. How was school? Fine. How are you feeling? Great. I pulled the car over. This is true. I pulled the car over on the side of the road. I stop it. That got his attention. He’s on his way to hockey practice.

I say, Justin, I’m doing you a favor right now. I’m driving you to hockey practice. You’re barely talking to me. That hurts my feelings. If I’m going to do you a favor, you’ve got to have a normal conversation with me. So one-word answers — no. I want to hear one thing you felt today, one thing you observed today, and one thing you learned today. Go.

And my little nine-year-old in the back of the seat, firstly, lets me know how annoyed he is. But then after that, he says, OK, I’ll tell you something I learned I’m thinking about — OK — is that hockey practice, when we drive to hockey practice, there’s a difference between the hockey players on my team who come from fancy private schools and the hockey players who come from public school.

And I go, wow. He’s nine. That’s really something. Can you describe that difference at all? And he goes, I can’t really say what it is, but I will say this. It’s got the same feeling as when you get white kids and Black kids is together. Now, my little nine-year-old was having a conversation with me about class difference. He would no longer have said that if I hadn’t insisted on it to fly to the moon.

So insist on connection. Insist on articulation. There’s no rule book in the sky that says when our boys hit 10, 11, 12, they suddenly have no feelings and they have nothing to say to us. No. You can do better than that.

Can I ask — again, I’m drawing from my own experience — and my dad has — I’m one of three daughters. So with this kind of situation and insisting on relationality, connectivity, would that be different for a dad who has a daughter, a girl, for example?

Well, daughters are just as hungry for an open-hearted relationship with their fathers as sons are. And it sounds like you benefited some from a more open-hearted dad and really enjoy that, as well you should. So in that regard, no, humans are humans and kids are kids.

But you see, an open-hearted, connected, vulnerable boy breaks from patriarchy, breaks from the tradition of masculinity. And so it’s helpful to have a man, as it were, give you permission to do that.

But what we used to say to our boys — and when I’m counseling fathers — is, raise your sons in particular — all children, all genders — but in particular, counter the patriarchy with your sons and raise them to be connected and feeling full and intimate.

And also know that that is not what’s going on the playground. You’re going to release that kid to the culture at large. So you also want to arm your kids, particularly sons, to be what I call gender literate, like cultural literate.

At any given moment, your child will choose self-expression and getting, perhaps, grief for it or compliance, shutting down, and losing some of his authenticity. That’s not my choice. That’s yours. But I will make that choice explicit with you.

I’m thinking back to that scene with you and your nine-year-old son in the car, you pulling it over, and him responding to your, I think, very vulnerable — I see so much of the stuff you’ve talked about at play in that scene. Because you said to your son, it hurts my feelings when you don’t speak to me. That’s admitting vulnerability. That’s being emotionally open to your son, saying, you’re hurting me.

And your son, after a beat — it sounds like it took him a bit of time to adjust, but he did open up to you. What would you advise to a father if they try this and they’re still getting the monosyllabic treatment from their kid, if they’re super resistant? What do you do?

Well, you have to play it — you can’t force anything Follow their lead. Tuesday, you pull over, and you make your big stance, and you get nowhere. Oh, well, OK, let’s go to hockey. You drive. Thanks, I love you. Don’t jam it down their throat.

But the next time you’re driving, all of a sudden, that same young boy starts opening up about how he was really close to Joe, and now Joe is sort of ignoring him. And what did he do? And there’s your opening. And light touch — don’t jam it down their throats. You follow their lead.

So you’ll find it. And that’s where the hanging out part comes. If you’re only with your kid one hour a week, there ain’t going to be an opening. But hang out with them. And they’ll be shut down, shut down, shut down.

My son, Justin, he was over our house — I don’t remember why exactly, but he stayed over. And the two of us wound up in the kitchen at 3:00 in the morning having a midnight snack, which we both do individually. And he looked at me, and he goes, Dad, Dad. He’s 37. Here we are in our underwear, having a midnight snack together. How cool is that, Dad?

That’s so sweet.

That’s a moment of relationality, underwear, eating some ice cream straight from the container.

Absolutely. We don’t mess with no dishes here. We’re guys.

When we come back, your questions, Terry Real’s advice.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Terry, you’re teeing us up so well. I would love to move on now to some of the questions we got from listeners who wanted to ask you about fatherhood, get your advice. I’m just going to note that we’re going to use only first names in these for the privacy of our listeners who are asking the questions. All right. So, Terry, this one comes from a listener named Matt.

Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi. [LAUGHS]

Aw.

Oh, man, been there, been there. OK. This is called talk softly and carry a big stick. But the stick needs to be proportionate to the crime. So you got reactive. And Matt — I say this with love — you retaliated.

You were disappointed in your six-year-old. Why? He was acting like a six-year-old.

I get this all the time in liberal, blue, blue Cambridge, Mass. I get parents who set limits on their kids and spend an hour and a half explaining it to them. And God forbid the kids should say I hate you. You know what? You set limits on your kids. They don’t like it. Good that he slammed the door. That means he feels safe enough with you to be angry at you. That’s good. That’s not bad.

Your kid’s acting like a six-year-old. Your six-year-old will get angry and reach for something and break it. It’s your job to say, honey, you can’t do that. Do that again, and this is what will happen to you. I like if-then statements. Do this again, and this is what’s going to — nature has neither rewards nor punishments. Nature has consequences. Do this, and this will happen to you. And the “this will happen to you” has to be proportionate.

What consequence do you think would have been appropriate in this instance?

You have to go to your room and think about it —

Yeah, time-out, classic.

— without any of your electronics or toys. Think about it for an hour. And then I want you to come down, and I want you to talk to me about why your dad would think it’s important to teach you that when you get mad, you can’t run around and break things. Why do you think that’s important?

That is not a question I was ever asked to contemplate as a kid. Why do you think it’s important to your dad that you not break things? Asking the kid to put him or herself in the position of the parent.

Why do you think it’s important that, in this family, you don’t get to hit your sister? Why do you think we’re saying that? And you’re six. You go ahead and hit your sister. But every time you do, this is what’s going to happen. Look, here’s the thing about parenting. You cannot control your child. If you try and control your child, they will let you know in jig time just how uncontrollable they are.

The minute you look at a child and say you will not do dot, dot, dot, guess what happens? No. What you can control is the environment around the child. You can choose to do this. That’s up to you. But if you do, this is what you’re looking at. And then you have to follow through. Here’s how I teach parents. And when the kid gets older, you can say this, but only to an older kid.

Look, here’s what I’m doing. I am teaching you that you can’t behave like that. If I don’t do that and you go out in the world and you behave like that, the world will teach you that you can’t behave like that. And the world will be a lot crueler to you than I’m being. So I know sending you to your room feels cruel to you. But trust me, it’s a lot less cruel than what’s going to happen to you if you’re 20 and you behave like that out in the world. So go to your room. That’s my job.

Man, I think that makes a lot of sense. We have a couple questions that exist in the theme of breaking the cycle, interrupting patterns in families, to put it in your language, facing the flames, facing the fire. The next one comes from a listener named Sean

You have to do this with a light touch. Be relational. Push a little, but don’t jam it down their throats. But be willing to push a little.

That’s such a sad — I just got sad listening to you, my friend. And your father telling others that you’ve done a better job than he — yeah, I guess so. Otherwise, he would be saying that to you directly, wouldn’t he?

Maybe you can help him out by letting him know you’ve heard that and asking him, Dad — it would be a gift. Why don’t you say that to me right now? In terms of your son, you have a struggle, it sounds like, yourself. You’re emerging now in your 40s from your own walled-offness.

First of all, you keep going. I can’t say this enough. The best gift we can give our kids is our own healing and recovery. Your son is not going to come out from behind his wall if you’re behind yours. You can’t ask somebody to do what you’re not doing. And if you do it, that will speak volumes more than whatever you tell them.

So you be open. He’s old enough. Talk about your childhood. Talk about your relationship with your father. Talk about — a little bit, not too much — your path toward open-heartedness yourself. Talk about your relationship if you have one.

Don’t ask him to be open and be closed yourself. Invite him to be open by always following the cues so you’re not overly burdening him. But here and there, when there’s an opening, show up yourself and be the man you want him to be — infinitely better than anything you can say.

The other factor here, which should be named, is what’s going on in the culture right now — and understanding that you are leaning in against a resurgence of all the least helpful, appealing elements of what it means to be a man these days. And appreciate that. You’re leaning into it, and you’re asking your child to lean into it.

What you’re saying about these other sort of forces shaping a son, a young person’s idea of masculinity, is really apt to the next question from a listener. This is from someone who goes by Ken. And it’s about seeing a kid go down a path that you’re not sure about, and more directly about trying to model a different kind of masculinity for that kid. Ken writes this. And we’ve edited it slightly for clarity and brevity. I’m going to read it right now.

Ken says, I have a fear of guiding young boys that comes directly from my relationship with masculinity and men. I came face to face with this with my now ex-partner’s son. He was in my life from four to six years old. I didn’t know what to do with him. He was an angry, combative, and destructive little boy. No doubt, he had complicated feelings from his parents’ separation.

Even at five years old, his biological father, his family, and TV had already modeled for him what it was to be a boy and a man. He loved dominator games, like good guy versus bad guy. But I would decline to play those games with him and redirect. I took him to Home Depot Saturday builds. I could feel this little boy was a lot of things I was not. It was hard to meet him where he was. I could feel part of me had antagonism to the brutish and combative parts of him, and I wanted to offer another way. That’s what Ken writes.

Terry, I think this is such an interesting situation this listener found himself in. There’s two parts here. First of all, can you speak to that fear Ken talks about about guiding this boy in the right direction?

Well, if I ever write a book on parenting, I’m going to call it Steering on Ice.

You don’t have control. You have approximate control.

Wow, a hockey metaphor — I love it.

There you go. There’s only so much you can do. The kids who they are. And Ken, he’s six. He doesn’t have to be a pro-feminist at six, OK?

I go back to the father who was talking about his six-year-old smashing a glass. It’s like, yeah, he’s six. That’s what he’s supposed to be doing. You’re supposed to be setting a container, but not from a place of judgment or contempt.

I’m glad this came up. He likes dominator games, good guys, bad guys. Ken, I love you, man. He’s six. Of course he lives in a world of good guys and bad guys. And the good guys fight the bad guys, and the good guys win. And you feel good about that. You’re not creating a rapist by playing that game.

Ken, loosen up. Enjoy the kid you’ve got instead of the one you want. And he’s come and gone. Maybe you can rekindle something with him. But maybe you should start with more acceptance and less pruning. May I tell a story?

Of course. And I love you still asking permission, but you certainly don’t have to. But yes, please.

This is a great family therapist, now gone, Frank Pittman, who grew up without a father and a sensitive guy — ran around his whole childhood trying to get fathers, men, to talk about their feelings. And good luck — grew up in the South. Had a son and thought, OK, this is it, man. I’ve got a son. We’re going to read books together and go to opera together and go to ballet together. Well, his son turns out to be a triathlon jock who marries a triathlon jock. And in his teen years, Frank Pittman was ready to kill him.

Wow.

And they just screamed at each other for years. And he finally went to a mentor of his, a great old therapist, came out of retirement just to help Frank with his teenage boy. He meets with Frank as Frank tells the story, meets with the boy meets, with the two of them, calls Frank into his office, and says this.

And he says, in a thick Atlanta accent, he says, Dr. Pittman, I’ve evaluated you, your son, your relationship. You know I love you. I just frankly fail to understand why you would want to turn this perfectly wonderful young man into a different kind of perfectly wonderful young man.

Yeah, there’s a lot of extrapolation about the kind of adult this kid might be because of how he is at four or five, six years old. And I just want to note that, in our first episode, we talked about your not-traditional approach to therapy, where you are incredibly direct with men, and you do it in a loving way. And you are literally doing it as you answer these questions. I hear what you’re saying, and I think Ken will too.

It goes back to what I was saying about nurture, guidance, and limits. Men often lean on guidance and limits. And if I were there and I had you back with that young boy, play the goddamn game, and let the good guys trash the bad guys. And have a blast. That’s more important than whatever lesson you’re trying to give them.

The second part too, I think, to that question, which is broader and more societal, is like, how can a father, a father figure, a mother, any kind of parent, help point boys in a healthy direction when there are so many inputs to masculinity shaping their understanding beyond our influence?

I want you to build a relationship cherishing subculture around your children and your family — friends, coaches, mentors, teachers. Go into school. And either join or form a committee against bullying. I want relationship skills taught in elementary school, junior high, and high school.

We are a little social activist with these kids. And we are against the grain. And so it’s like a pick — even I can use a sporting metaphor. It’s like a pick in basketball. You want to form a fence between them and the terrible influences that they’re going to be bathed in. Pick your friends. Pick your family friends. Pick mentors. And have something standing between them and what’s coming at them.

And teach them — don’t pussyfoot around with this. Teach them to handle what’s going to be thrown at them. Make it explicit.

I want to turn us now to a question from a listener named Paige. This is a question about raising daughters, in fact.

Great.

You’re handing me these tiny little questions that — OK, let’s fix the world. Look. It’s good because we’ve been talking about masculinity, but I also deal with women. And I make a big deal out of the difference between what I call individual empowerment and relational empowerment. This is really important for women.

Individual empowerment I summarize as, I was weak. Now I’m strong. Go screw yourself. But relational empowerment is both assertive and loving at the same time. Let me say that again. Under patriarchy, you can either be connected, accommodating, quote unquote, “feminine,” or you can be strong, independent, assertive, quote unquote, “masculine.” But you can’t be both at the same time.

This is important. Because power is power over. When you step into power, you lose connection. And a lot of women are empowered — psychotherapy cheers them on — and empower themselves right out of skilled communication and connection. Loving power breaks the back of patriarchy for both sexes.

Loving power is this. May I, Anna? You’re so sweet.

Yes, anything.

I can’t even imagine ever saying this to you. But it’s an interesting saying. I don’t like how you’re talking to me. Be respectful, Anna. Or saying, sweetie, I want to hear what you have to say. Could you tone it down so I could listen to it? I want to hear it. Soften up so I can hear — two different ways of saying the same thing.

One is moving from disempowerment to empowerment. Congratulations. The other empowers both me and you at the same time. I love you. You love me. We’re a team. This is what I want from you. What can I give you to help you give it to me? I want to empower you. And I would have Paige school her daughter in loving assertion.

I’m going to go to this next one. It comes from a listener named Megan. She’s a mom to a 17-year-old son and a 22-year-old daughter. She told us the father of her children died by suicide when her kids were young. So, as she puts it, her son, quote, “didn’t really have any male father figures in his life.” Let’s listen to that one now.

First of all, let me just say, Megan, I’m sorry for the burden that you and your family carry at your husband’s — ex-husband’s, whatever — suicide. What a terrible thing. And your question brings a smile on my face. I’ll tell you why. What do you have to teach your son about masculinity? My dear, it sounds like you’ve done it. Own it.

Boys don’t need men to teach them how to be men. The research is clear. Single moms, lesbian moms — boys do just fine, thank you very much. That worry is not psychology, it’s patriarchy. Children need adults to teach them how to be grown-up adults. Your son is compassionate, big hearted, has a lovely girlfriend. Guess what? You have taught him everything he needs to know about how to be a man.

And there are role models in his life, I guarantee it. There are other men, family friends, your friends, coaches. Fathers are not the only men that boys can turn to. What I love is for you to, as my zen friends say, take your seat. Take in that you have taught him how to be a relational man, and you are capable of doing that, even as a woman.

And as I say to my darling Belinda from time to time, take yes for the answer. You’ve done a great job, sounds like.

Terry, I think that will mean a lot to Megan. Thank you for saying that. This next question comes from a listener named Steve. He wrote to us and said he had a question about estrangement. And he wanted to break a cycle he saw in his own family. Let’s listen to Steve.

I think you need help. Hire — I’m going to say an RLT therapist, a trained family therapist. Ask your kids if they would speak one on one with someone. Don’t start off with family therapy. That might be too big a reach for them. But say you’re in therapy. You’re trying to work on the things that they’re complaining about. You feel terrible that they feel badly about how they were treated by you.

As a favor to you, as you do your work, could they share their perspective with the person you’re working with? You would like them to reach out to your kids and hear what they have to say. See if you can get that far. And then if you’ve hired somebody, good. They’ll hear your kids out and do the best at roping them into, you know, this is really great. I think your dad needs to hear this. Let’s all meet together. That’s your shot.

But get help. Don’t try and do it yourself. And get somebody who’s good. And have that person reach out to them to hear from them, not to do family therapy to heal things for your sake. They don’t want to heal things for your sake. But they may want to be heard. Start with that.

Yeah. What’s your advice for fathers who might be listening to this, who look back in hindsight — they’re hearing everything you’re saying. And they’re like, oh my gosh, I feel like I could have done better.

Listen. You get yourself into therapy. I don’t care how old you are. You can’t come from — and I’ve been there. You cannot come from what you came from and have the happy, healthy family you want and deserve without doing a shitload of therapy. That’s just how it is. It’s not fair, but it gets it done.

What you brought to the table, along with your positives — and own those positives. But you also brought your depression and your unhealed trauma, and that is a burden. And it’s never too late. First, get yourself less depressed and less traumatized. And then talk with your kids about your healing journey and what you were then and what you are now, and enjoy the last years.

I do have a story. When people tell me they’re too old, I say, so far in my decades of practice, the oldest has been 86 years old. And here’s the story —

Wow.

— true story. I got a call one day. This was years ago. I got a call one day from a guy. And he says, I hear you do these trauma groups, week-long groups dealing with deep trauma with about five, six people. He said, do you ever do these groups with siblings? I have four brothers. There are five of us, all boys. We had a terrible father — abusive, mean, physically violent. And we’re all screwed up. Will you do trauma work with all of us as a group?

I said, well, I’ve never done it, but sure, let’s try it and see how it goes. Well, all of them had marital issues, addiction, rage, depression — all of it. And we did our work. And they all got better. And their marriages got better. And they got on meds, and they got off booze, and they got into program, and they all got better — true story.

And so I get a call. And God in her wisdom, I picked up the phone, which is not — I just happened to. And there was this voice on the other end. Is this Terry Real? Uh, yeah. This is So-and-so. Oh. It was their father.

Wow.

86. Said this is so-and-so. I said, wow, I’ve been hearing a lot about you.

He said, I’ll bet. I’ve been hearing about you too. I got a question for you. I go, OK. He goes, what are you doing with my boys? What are you doing with them? I go, well, I’m trying to do therapy with them. Why do you ask? And he goes, well, whatever you’re dishing out, I could use some.

Wow.

Touches me — 86 years old. He came in. He made amends to me. He knew he’d been a bastard, like his father before him. I asked if he would meet with the boys. He said yes. We did family therapy. Taking a leaf from a great family therapist, Cloé Madanes, I had him get on his knees —

Wow.

— physically and make amends to his sons. And again, I didn’t ask them to forgive him, but to accept him. And they did. And they had a beautiful three years. And then he died.

Wow.

It’s never too late, guys. It’s never too late.

I want to ask kind of a broad meta question here, which is, what are you hearing in these messages and these questions all together? Is there a theme coming up for you?

Oh, in the questions from people writing in?

Yeah.

Well, at the most aerial —

and it’s what I love. Yeah, the theme is, how do I do it better? How do I do it better? I want to do better. And I was with another thought leader. We were co-teaching. And she said, the difference between us is, you really believe in the essential goodness of the humans. And I do. I do.

Goodness will out. I hope our planet survives. But goodness will out. Before I was a therapist, I was a literature person. And I love to quote. This is from the German poet, Goethe. If you treat someone as they are, they will be as they are. If you treat someone as they ought to be, they may become who they ought to be.

This is my message.

Be a pioneer. Have courage. Trust your instincts. We are born to be relational. You know what’s right and what’s wrong. You know it in your bones. Stand up for it. I want to take that Goethe quote and apply it to the whole world.

We are not at our best in this moment — globally, politically — around the goddamn world. We need to rise to the occasion, all of us. Open your heart. Know what you know. Raise healthy kids. Don’t buy the bullshit.

I talked about Bruce. God bless. He quoted me. By the way, can you imagine the feeling —

No, I literally can’t —

— of Bruce Springsteen quoting you?

— Terry.

He quoted me in his intro. The whole book, this is the line he took. “The world does not belong to us. We belong to one another. Open your heart, stand up for connection, and offer the gift of connection to the next generation. That’s our job.”

I mean, you just ended our episode — Terry Real. Actually, before we go, can we just say happy Father’s Day again? Happy Father’s Day, everyone.

Happy Father’s Day. Go and grill with your kids. I don’t care if you’re grilling vegetables. That’s fine.

[LAUGHS]: Go and grill —

I know it’s carcinogenic.

Just go have some goddamn fun. My parting words — go have fun.

Boom. Terry Real, always an honor. Thank you so much. And thank you for sitting with these listener questions. I know it will be appreciated. Thank you.

Always great. Wonderful, wonderful interview. Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING]

One more time, happy Father’s Day, listeners. And thank you to everyone who sent in a story about their dad or question for Terry. We hope you get out there and grill this weekend. The “Modern Love” team is Amy Pearl, Christina Djossa, Davis Land, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sara Curtis.

This episode was produced by Davis Land. It was edited by Jen Poyant. Our video team is Brooke Minters, Felice Leone, Michael Corriero, Sawyer Roque, and Bradley Kimbrough. This episode was mixed by Efim Shapiro with studio support from Maddy Masiello and Nick Pittman. The “Modern Love” theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, and Rowan Niemisto.

The “Modern Love” column is edited by Daniel Jones. Miya Lee is the editor of “Modern Love” projects. If you’d like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the “New York Times,” we have the instructions in our show notes. I’m Anna Martin with a bit of a cold. Thanks for listening.

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